RE: Hensley Arrow and ProPride - Not a New Debate
I don't know the total weight of the part of the hitch that mounts to your trailer. The shipping weight will be a lot more, though. Part of the weight is the boxes and packing materials, and there are tools included in the boxes, too (breaker bar, socket, ratchet wrench, etc.). My 3P also came with a fair amount of extra hardware, including extra U bolts (apparently, that's because trailer frames come in different sizes). Finally, the "stinger" assembly (the part that attaches to your truck) is around 70 pounds all by itself. So a weight of around 100 pounds for the hitch assembly as mounted sounds reasonable to me.
RE: GM 8.1L V8 vs. Ford 6.8L V10
yu really need the 410s with the 8.1? they must not have very much torque? you think 373s would work better.
What you "need" in terms of axle ratio depends on what you are pulling. But the GM 8.1 has plenty of torque. The stock 8.1 in my 2006 Suburban is rated to produce 447 lb-ft at 3200 rpm. By comparison, the Ford 6.8 V10 in the Excursion was rated at 425 lb-ft at 3250 rpm. So the 8.1 had 5% greater torque, at a lower rpm, and in a vehicle that weighs less.
The 8.1 is still being installed in GM's medium duty trucks, including the 4500, 5500, 6500, 7500 and 8500 series. In those applications, it is rated to produce between 440 and 455 lb-ft.
If the trailer you want to tow is 9,000 pounds or less, then the 3.73 ratio is probably the best choice in an 8.1 Suburban. It will pull the trailer just fine, and you will get better mileage than you will with the 4.10 ratio. For really heavy loads, though, nothing beats the torque multiplication that comes from a higher axle ratio. My 'burb with the 4.10 rear axle is rated by GM to pull a 12,000 pound trailer, and it will do so without breaking a sweat. That ain't bad for a gasser.
RE: GM 8.1L V8 vs. Ford 6.8L V10
Of course, most 8.1 'Burbs came with the 3.73 also, very hard to find one of them with 4.10s.
That wasn't my experience at all. When we were shopping (this past summer), we called on or looked at perhaps 30 or 40 8.1 Suburbans. Only one or two of the bunch had 3.73 axles. I suspect that's because people who ordered the 8.1 engine in a Suburban did so specifically because they planned to tow some big loads, so of course they got the 4.10 axle.
The 3.73 axle ratio is indeed far more common among Suburbans in general, but that's because the vast majority of Suburbans had the 6.0 engine. Among the 8.1 Suburbans, the 4.10 seems to have been the most common axle ratio.
RE: GM 8.1L V8 vs. Ford 6.8L V10
We love our 8.1 'burb (see sig for details). It has about 80% of the free world's supply of torque. It tows a big ole trailer (36 feet hitch to bumper, dry weight 8,000 pounds) without breaking a sweat, and will do 65 mph all the way up long highway grades with the trailer behind, and without dropping out of OD.
And gas mileage has not been that bad, really. We're averaging 12-13 mpg around town, and 16-18 highway (not towing), but we also have a Gear Vendors under/overdrive installed that undoubtedly helps a lot (its automatic gear splitting effectively makes the 4L85E transmission into a 8-speed unit).
RE: Before I pull the trigger
I disagree there is still 1000# vertical load on the hitch/receiver with a WD system. That 1000# on the hitch/receiver is distributed (for lack of a better word) via the TV frame with 75% showing up on the rear axle and 25% on the front axle in your example.
Larry
I'm with Ron on this one. A WD hitch transfers applies an upward force on the coupler that counteracts the tongue weight. The result is a decrease in load on the TV rear axle, and an increase in load on the trailer axles and the TV front axle. Typically, about a third of the tongue weight gets moved off of the tongue and onto the trailer axles.
Let's use an example. Assume a TT that weighs 8,000 pounds loaded. The tongue weight is 1,200 pounds. If you hook it up to a TV with no weight distribution, you would have 1,200 pounds pushing down on the TV (via the tongue), and 6,800 pounds on the trailer's axles.
You then hook up the WD bars and crank them up. The bars push up on the tongue and hitch. The trailer now has 7,200 pounds on its axles. Since the trailer hasn't gotten any heavier, that tells us that the load on the tongue is now 8,000 - 7,200 = 800 pounds.
The other effect of the WD hitch is to shift weight between the rear and front axles of the TV. But WD hitches do in fact take some load off of the tongue and move it to the trailers axles. How much load they move to the axles is a function of how much force you set them to apply.
RE: Hensley Arrow and ProPride - Not a New Debate
ProPride is working on a service stinger. It should be out in the next year.
In the meantime, I don't understand the fuss. When I have to take my TT in, I just leave my stinger with it. The stinger fits in any standard 2" receiver. At the place I take my trailer, they move trailers around with a Bobcat that has a receiver hitch attachment where the bucket would go. Just pop my stinger into the receiver on the front of the bobcat, and it's good to go.
RE: Hensley Arrow and ProPride - Not a New Debate
Thanks for all the input. Just a quick question, what do "bump" and "anti-bump" mean.
The Hensley and ProPride both use a converging link design. In certain rare situations, the links can allow the trailer to run forward to the limit of travel of the links. When it does so, the trailer hits the stops on the linkage, and the tow vehicle feels that event as a "bump" in the rear from the trailer.
There is a lot of debate concerning the circumstances under which a bump may occur, and how significant the event it. I don't have all the answers. I can say that it seems to be pretty much accepted that any situation where the tow vehicle is slowing more rapidly than the trailer MAY result in a "bump." The bump can conceivably upset the overall stability of the rig. The worst case scenario example I have read about is somewhere descending a steep hill, in the rain, with a sharp curve in the road. If the trailer brakes are weak, the brake controller is not set correctly, and/or the tow vehicle is using strong engine braking only, a heavy trailer can bump the rear of the tow vehicle with enough force that it could cause a loss of traction at the rear wheels of the tow vehicle.
The possibility of a "bump" is inherent in the design of the hitch (converging links). It it concerns you, go with a conventional hitch, or a Pull-Rite. I would point out, however, that the converging link design has many advantages that I believe offset the slight possibility of instability caused by a bump situation. Moreover, with proper TV and trailer prep and maintenance, and simple precautions such as not using engine braking on downhill curves, the likelihood of a bump can be reduced to practically nil. Finally, a prepared driver will be able to respond to a bump and regain control quickly. Accordingly, I went with a converging link hitch (ProPride for me), and don't regret that choice. I have never experienced the "bump", and don't expect to. If I do, however, I will be ready and do not believe it will cause any loss of control
RE: Can't find the perfect TT
Just to pile on with the rest, NOT POSSIBLE. Seriously, true "two bedroom" TT's only exist in park models that are 36-40 feet long. We have something kind of close to what you're looking for, in that it has a queen bed up front, a living/kitchen area with slide and sofa in the middle, and a bunk room with slide in the back, but our rig is 36 feet from hitch to bumper. Plus, our bath is between the living area and the rear bunk room.
With a queen in the front, even a short "RV queen", you'll need at least seven feet from the front wall of the trailer box to the wall separating your front bedroom from the rest of the trailer. Assuming you have the rear queen turned sideways, you may get away with as little as six feet from rear wall of trailer box to the wall separating the rear bedroom from the rest of the trailer. That's a minimum of 13 feet of length right there, and both bedrooms would be VERY tight. In a 25 foot box (total trailer length of about 29 feet), that leaves only about 12 feet of length for bedroom, kitchen, dinette, sofa, TV, etc. Sorry, but I just don't think it can be done.
RE: 2005 Suburban 2500
Have the 8.1 2002 sub, bought it with 40,000 miles,(now has 90,000) is by far the best tow vehicle I have owned, pull a 29 ft jayco, highway speeds with the cruise on.
Love it, with 496 cu in displacement who cares about fuel milage.
If you want a great gas puller, the 8.1 is hard to come by.
Putz
http://emoticons4u.com/cartoon/1224.gif
Hey Putz, IIRC the 8.1 is 502 cubic inches, at least that's what I was told.
Nope. Pondputz has it right. The 8100 Vortec has a 4.25 inch bore and 4.37 inch stroke. That works out to 495.95 cubic inches, i.e., 496.
It's basically the old 454 "rat" engine that's been stroked to increase displacement and torque. Whereas the 454 uses a 4.0 inch stroke crankshaft, the 8.1's crankshaft has a 4.37 inch stroke. Both the 454 and the 8.1 have 4.25 inch bores.
The 502 is a big block available from GM as a crate engine. Like the 8.1, the 502 derives from the old 454 Rat motor, but it's done in a different manner. The 502 uses the same 4.0 inch stroke as the 454, but the bores are enlarged to 4.47 inches. Thus, the 502 has larger bores (4.47 vs. 4.25) but a shorter stroke (4.0 vs. 4.37) than the 8.1 Vortec. That makes the 502 more suited for high horsepower applications, but with less low rpm torque than the similar displacement 8.1. In other words, the 8.1 is a true truck engine (low revving, with lots of grunt starting just off idle) whereas the 502 is a high performance/racing engine that develops a lot more horsepower, but needs to rev up quite a bit to do it.
For old Ford guys, a good comparison is the classic 427 and 428 Ford "FE" engines from the late 60s. While they were both "FE" series big blocks with identical external dimensions, and the displacements were almost identical, they were very, very different in how they performed. The 427 Ford, which was a high performance engine developed for racing applications, used a 4.232 bore and 3.784 stroke. The 428 Ford was developed for use in heavy passenger cars that required more low end torque and less high end horsepower, so it used smaller pistons (4.132 bore) and longer stroke (3.98). The total displacements were almost identical for the two engines, but they performed very, very differently.
RE: 2005 Suburban 2500
I agree with everything Burbman posted, except that I get slightly better mileage towing. I have a 2006 Suburban 2500 8.1/4.10. Like Burbman's, it is rated at 8,600 GVW, 19,000 GCW and 12,000 max trailer weight. I tow a trailer that is 36 feet hitch to bumper and weighs 8,000 pounds empty (11,000 GVWR). 7.5-8.0 mpg towing is typical. When not towing, I'm getting about 12 mpg around town and 17 mpg highway, but those numbers are higher than most people see in large part because I also have a Gear Vendors under/overdrive installed on my 'burb. I leave the GV off when towing, though, so my towing mpg should be typical of what others with similar rigs get.
A buddy of mine is a GM truck engineer. When I was thinking of buying this 'burb, he told me that the good thing about the 8.1 was that it has "90% of the free world's supply of torque. If you hold a constant pedal, it holds a constant speed," he said, "even when the road heads straight up." I found that to be true. On a recent trip through Tennessee and Kentucky, I noticed that I was pulling my 8,000 pound trailer up some long grades with the cruise set at 65 mph, and the trans was staying in OD!
On the flip side, my buddy said, "the 8.1 vortec burns gas like a blowtorch." I wouldn't say it's that bad, but the recent drop in gas prices (down to $2.69 a gallon here in Minnesota) has been welcome.
RE: Hensley Arrow and ProPride - Not a New Debate
This is not intended to start another debate between the two, just wanted to get some practical information on the two set ups.
(1) It is correct that both will have the effect of increasing the tongue weight of a TT? If it is, what can one expect in terms of the quantitative impact (lbs) on the tongue weight for each?
(2) Is there a difference in terms of the degree of difficulities in installing the units the first time?
(3) For a person with a back problem, which one is easier to hook up and uphook? What kind of weights that one has to lift each time?
Thanks!
Well, I have a ProPride 3P, and I can talk about it. I don't have a Hensley Arrow, and have never had to install one, so I can't give you a direct comparison.
First -- yes, both will add weight to the tongue of the trailer. They both come with built-in weight distribution, however, so it doesn't really matter much, as you will be transferring that weight to the trailer axles and TV front axle. They will not adversely affect your handling in any way.
Second -- I have never installed a Hensley Arrow. I did install my ProPride, and it was my first time ever installing a TT hitch. I found it to be pretty easy. I did it myself, without any helper. The ProPride came with a number of tools, which I thought was a nice (and unexpected) touch, including a ratcheting closed-end wrench, a large socket and a breaker bar. The other tools you will need are a tape measure, a socket wrench set (english, not SAE), some large open end wrenches, and I found a bottle jack to be useful, too (for raising the yoke into position). As near as I can tell, the Hensley Arrow installs in pretty much the same way. The hardest thing about the install, for me, was repositioning the gas bottle tray. I ended up drilling a few holes in it so I could pass the U bolts for the ProPride through it. Alternatively, I could have put spacers underneath it.
Third -- while I have never handled a Hensley Arrow, I understand that it has a one-piece "Stinger." The stinger is the part that slides into the receiver on your TV. Once the hitch is installed, it is the only part that you ever need to lift. The ProPride 3P, unlike the Hensley Arrow, has an adjustable stinger. The advantage of the adjustable stinger is that you can adjust it for height and angle to fine it for your TV, and move it between TV's. With the Hensley Arrow, you need to buy a new stinger if you switch TV's. The disadvantage of the ProPride's adjustable stinger is that it weighs more. I haven't weighed mine, but I have heard it weighs about 60 pounds, and that sounds about right to me. It is indeed heavy, but my wife can and does lift it. I have heard that the Hensley Arrow's non-adjustable stinger weighs a little less -- perhaps around 40 pounds. It is still heavy, just not as heavy as the ProPride's.
Good luck.
RE: Blowing out lines...End result
Hey KSD,
I live about a mile south of Medina in Plymouth. We've never had 30-days without going above zero here! Maybe 30 days without going above 32. Glad I don't live "up north" there in Medina!
Oops. Looks like I got corrected below. The figure I was thinking of was consecutive days with a "low" temp below zero.
RE: Anyone have luck selling with rvt.com?
Unless you have something really unusual and desirable, your best bet will always be to try and sell locally. List it on Craigslist for sure, and perhaps in the classifieds of the local wheeler 'n dealer or newspaper. Yes, I know it's old tech, but it still works. See if you can find a place to park it where it is visible from a busy street, and put a For Sale sign on it. Price it right. If you overprice with the expectation of negotiating, a lot of folks who might otherwise be interested won't even bother to call.
If you have something that is somewhat unusual, there may not be much of a local market for it. In that case, going national will be your best hope. ebay is probably a better bet than RVT, RVUSA, etc. You can list it on ebay with a "Buy It Now" price equal to what you really want for it. I recommend low opening bids, but be sure to set a reserve price, too.
RE: Tow/haul mode
If your worried about decreased gas mileage in the tow/haul mode, forget it. There is no difference in gas mileage that you I can see.
I don't know what you drive, but in my 2006 Suburban 8.1, engaging tow/haul definitely causes a drop in fuel economy, and that's consistent with what GM says.
RE: model designations
Q usually = Queen, as in queen bed. In the case of Arctic Fox, some of their models are generator ready, hence the G designation.
Our Terry is a 280FQS, meaning 28' living space (32' overall including tongue), then Front Queen Slide.
FKS= Front Kitchen Slide
BHDS= Bunk House Double Slide
RQ= Rear Queen
Add these to the others above and you'll see the permutations.
Well, "Q" can also mean "quad" as in "quad bunks."
RE: Blowing out lines...End result
Temps below zero for a couple of weeks every winter, below freezing for 3 months or so, and 2-3 feet of snow on top of the TT. Everything thaws in the spring and no problems.
Things are, um, a little "different" up here in God's Country(tm). We routinely see subzero temps -- 15 or 20 below is not uncommon, and we've been known to go more than 30 straight days without the mercury reaching to, let along above, the zero line. You ain't seen cold until you can take a cup of boiling water outside, throw it in the air, and it freezes before it hits the ground.
RE: Just joined the club
Spitse, be glad that you got it out of the way with only minor damage -- mostly to your pride. Keep in mind the old adage:
"There are only two kinds of RVers. Those who have hit something, and those who WILL hit something."
RE: wonderful october camping trip
I wish. After years of renting, we finally bought a TT last month. We live in Minnesota, but thought we would get to use it a few weekends before putting it in storage for the winter. Much to our surprise, many campgrounds in Minnesota close for the season by the 3rd or 4th weekend of September! We decided to go to a State Park about two hours from us the weekend before last, but then the wife got the flu. In the end, my boys and I had a "campout" with the trailer parked in the driveway last Saturday night. We did s'mores over a campfire in the yard, then played cards and made popcorn in the camper before going to sleep in it.
And that was it. Our winter storage facility required us to be in by this weekend, so on Sunday afternoon we dropped it off. We won't see it again until April.
